Today, we are talking to Adam Rosen, Entrepreneur and Founder of the Email Outreach Company, about accepting responsibility and self-reflection in leadership. "I can't control what anyone else does but I CAN control what I do."
Culture, leadership, and self-management are easy when nothing’s changing or going wrong. But, your character gets tested and your true colors show in crises.
In this conversation, we talk about the nuance and context that are important within transparency and authenticity. As well as leaders who lean into the hard conversations vs those who avoid, place blame, and step out.
We’re all a work in progress. But, hopefully, we’re trying, learning from our mistakes, and doing better as we go along.
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To learn more about Adam and his work, visit eocworks.com. You can also find him on Instagram and LinkedIn (@adamirosen).
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Adam Rosen, who is an entrepreneur that loves to support business owners and share his roller coaster startup journey to help those on a similar path. As the founder of a tech startup, Adam spent five years leading a college recruiting startup that was acquired in 2019 by a leading college marketing firm. His primary focus is on helping startups get more sales appointments hassle-free through his lead generation business email outreach company. Thanks for being on the show, Adam.
Thanks for having me, Celine. I'm really excited to be here and it's always a pleasure talking with you.
It is always a pleasure. So as you know, I start all of these podcasts by asking the kind of big, broad question, which is the name of the podcast is "Leading Through Crisis" and I'm curious what that means to you? When you hear that, what comes up for you?
The first thing that comes to mind whenever I hear that and listening to your podcast and hearing you ask that question is on my office when I used to have a tech startup in Boston, we had this one quote that was right behind me, written on my wall which was, "Perseverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages." And that was from George Washington in 1776. And I feel like he, at least, you know, being an American, he's always someone that I've looked up to as someone who dealt with probably the ultimate or one of the ultimate times where there was real crisis. And the crisis that came from it was obviously, America being born as a nation. So that's the first quote, and the first thing that comes to mind. And as leaders, we'll all have to deal with some type of crisis, whether it's a small scale or a big scale. And frankly as time goes on, hopefully the crises that we have to go through, get bigger and bigger because if that's happening, that means that we can handle more of it. You know, we start with small crises. We try to learn from that, grow from that, adapt from that. But as time goes on, the crisis that we go through as we get bigger will only get stronger. So I think the mark of a great leader is it's easy to be calm, cool, and collective and happy and positive when times are good, but the true mark of any great leader is when times are tough, how do we adapt? How do we overcome them and how do we act in those times? So I always think about George Washington in that quote whenever I think about crises and whenever I think about leadership.
I really appreciate the perspective that hopefully as we grow as leaders, we are gonna deal with bigger and bigger crises 'cause I think that most people hope that as we move through life and through leadership, we're actually going to be so great at things, we're gonna deal with less. But the truth is that we take on more and we can handle more and we have experience with more. And so it does, it's actually really a positive sign when we are dealing with larger, more challenging, whatever, however you wanna frame it, crises. And I think it's a really good call out that you made there.
Yeah, I think it's easy and safe, frankly, for us to deal with less. If we wanna live a life where we have very few crises that we have to handle, of course, life will always throw something out at us and we can't control that. But if we wanna live a life where we minimize the amount of crisis that we go through, that's fine and that's one way to go through life. But that means you're probably not shooting for anything. You're probably not taking too many risks. You're probably not putting yourself into uncertainty. The more that you do put yourself out front, the more that you do take, go into uncertainty, the more you do dive head first in before you know what that answer is, the more you're gonna be faced with different crises. And the truth is we'll never be able to handle it perfectly. We'll never know exactly how you're gonna be able to handle it. You know that famous Mike Tyson quote is, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." Right? We all have a plan until that crises happens, until we actually get punched in the mouth. And that's when the true mark of who we are really starts to shine through.
Well, because it's always easy to, I talk about this in culture and 'cause, you know, the work I do is in culture and leadership, and I talk about this in culture and leadership in terms of self-management is it's really easy when the stakes are low and things are going well to be like, "I know myself so well. I am the most emotionally intelligent. Our culture is awesome 'cause we're all getting along." That is really easy when there is nothing going wrong, when there's no change, when there's no crisis, when there's no challenge. It's like, "Yeah, of course, we're awesome 'cause this is like a neutral position." It's really different when you are challenging yourself or you're stepping into areas of growth or you're taking something different on or change or whatever. That's where the proverbial shit hits the fan and all of that gets challenged.
Exactly. That's when the mask comes off. We can all say those fancy quotes that we all love listening to, those motivational speeches, like they all sounds great. And we all wanna believe that we can, that when crises does happen, we'll handle it that right away. But when, as you said, when shit hits the fan, what happens? What do we do? How do we handle it? Do we handle it with grace or do we start pointing the fingers? Do we go into the fetal position and go into the corner? Or do we go to the front of the line? That's when I think our true character gets tested. It's again, it's easy to say all the right things and do all the right things and be Mr. and Mrs. Positive when times are good and times are easy, but it's when the crises does happen, that's when our true colors get displayed.
For sure. And so I know you have a background in startups and startups are notorious for change in crisis and all of that fun stuff that comes with that world because there's a lot of unknowns, right? Like, you know, at the end of the day, there's nothing certain for any company, business, organization, whatever you're doing, but a lot more uncertainty in startups where you, especially where you have people that are working for you, there's a lot more uncertainty and challenge there. And so I'm curious about the type of crises that you have faced inside of those worlds and what you took from it, what you learned, what some of that story is 'cause I'm guessing there's a lot there.
Yeah. I mean, we could go in a bunch of different directions here.
Your choice, dealer's choice.
Yeah. So even just to give a couple different examples that I can highlight one specific, everything from, there was, we started my company, it was myself and two other co-founders. So it was three of us. As time went on, we ended added two more co-founders on the tech side of the house. So we, at a time, had five total co-founders, myself included. And I remember one of my business partners, good friends and mentors in the space who had run successful companies was like, "By the time everything is said and done, you're gonna have one other co-founder, tops, one other co-founder, tops." That ended up being what happened. It was myself and one other co-founder. Two of those co-founders, we let go. One of those co-founders left us. So that's one example. Another example is I remember being on a flight and we had money owed to us from some of our larger clients, and they were taking too long to pay us. And we're like, at this point, my business partner and I hadn't paid ourselves for at least a few months and we're paying, making sure our team was paid. So they had no idea what was going on, but we're like just, we're just scraping by making sure that we can pay for our office, our technology, our employees, everything else, but we're not paying ourselves 'cause we didn't have the capital to do so at the time. And I remember just being on the flight, my business partner and I were sitting right next to each other, we're going to a conference and we're like, "We can't. We literally have to get money on our bank account now or we're not gonna payroll, which is in six hours from now." So we called that company that owed us money and we said, "Hey, you guys have owed us money. You're past due." They're like, "Oh, we have to send a new invoice. It's gonna take another 90 days." My business partner was like, "No, that's unacceptable. We're not getting off the phone until you pay us right this second." And thankfully, they ended up paying us right there. But that's one example of just, "Hey, we needed money." That wasn't the only time, unfortunately, we were cash strapped. Couldn't pay ourselves for a time. But we were able to pay our employees. That's another type of crisis where people are walking in the office and they're talking to you about how they're struggling with their life or they're struggling with this part of their life or this or that. And they're complaining to you and that's all great. I love being in that sounding board for them, but I'm like, "Little do you know." I'm like, "I haven't fucking paid myself in three months. I'm working like a dog. 6:00 AM till 8, 9:00 PM. And I have to hear you bitching to me about this. I got so much other stuff I gotta deal with." But obviously, you can't let that out as a leader. You have to pretend like everything is good, everything's rosy. Because if they know about that, what's gonna happen to them? They're gonna panic. And they're gonna start worrying about things that aren't, things that they should be worrying about because that's my focus that I need to be focused on and they shouldn't be dealing with. So things like that, retention issues that we faced, about big customers that we would lose and the consequences to that, needing to raise money. Sometimes they're working, sometimes they're not working. So there was a bunch of different examples throughout the tech startup that really tested our grit and our ability to try to overcome these difficult circumstances.
So there's two things that I wanna, that you mentioned that I wanna poke into a little bit. The first one is that idea that, you know, when the payroll idea, right, where you're saying like you, there's money challenges, you're still making payroll so that people in your organization are unaware of the realities of what you're dealing with. And I think that's a really important concept because there is a, I'm, like, "I will fully own this. I'm big on transparency. I, all, yeah, like I talk about it all the time with leaders. I talk about it all the time with culture that transparency is important and it doesn't mean that everyone needs to know everything all the time especially when it's impossible for them to have all of the context and things aren't final or decided. So it's a matter of sharing appropriate information with appropriate people so that they know what they need to know and they know change is happening or there is a challenge as opposed to, here's every single detail of the challenge that you are gonna worry about and can't do anything about. And I say that because what you're talking about there is really that, it's not necessarily, I know you use the language pretending. I'm not saying, I'm not, it's not necessarily pretending something is, everything is okay. It is recognizing that they can't do anything about it and it's not their responsibility to take this on. So what can you share? That you're busy and you're figuring whatever the case may be. That's really important for leaders and business owners to be aware of and recognize. Because I think sometimes we get into, we focus so much on the pretending piece that it's not transparent as opposed to the, what is the balance inside of that.
Exactly. And that's the thing is, you can only control what you can control. And for those employees, that didn't need to be part of their head space. They didn't need to be worrying about that. That would only bring down their job. They are gonna be thinking about things that don't matter. And frankly, were taken care of. Now, things that you should be transparent about is when we decide to sell the company. We told everybody, "Hey, here's what we're doing. We're going to sell the company. Here's what that is gonna look like. And if you wanna look for other opportunities right now, that's totally your right, your responsibility. Take care of whatever you need to take care of. But we are going to focus right now on selling the company and take that information how you want it to be. And if you wanna ask any question about it, we'll be honest and transparent about it." But information like that, I thought was important. "Hey, we made the decision. We're going to approach selling the company. And here's what that looks like on our side. Feel free to ask any questions." I think that's important, when things like payroll, "Hey, you're getting paid until that stops happening. You don't need to worry about what we need to take care of on our side which we are by the way, taking care of."
Yeah. 100%. And I appreciate that, and that's why I wanted to, I think it's important to talk about that, that people recognize that difference because again, transparency, when we talk about it and it's like authenticity or integrity or so many things. It's like this all or nothing concept that it's like, well, like all things, there's actually nuance and context that matters inside of it. The other thing I wanted to ask about was when you were, the first story you were kind of talking about which was like there were three co-founders and then five co-founders and then down to one co-founder. So I think it is, that interpersonal piece when it comes to crisis is change crisis, whatever you wanna call it, that's real for every leader in every situation, whether it's a business partner or a peer or something. We all have situations that are challenging on an interpersonal level. And I'm curious what, and I appreciate, it's not about sharing all of the, like, dirty laundry. That's not what I'm at, but like how, what was happening? How were the dynamics managed? What did you learn about yourself leading through that and getting through that, that you took on as a leader after? 'Cause to me, those situations, there's always so much gold in them.
Absolutely, and such a good point. So the two of the biggest things I learned from my company, aside from like the more tangible stuff like the importance of product market you could fit and sales and like more of those tangible things, like more of the human element. 'Cause I always think being, I used to always say, when I started an entrepreneur accelerator program in school and I was studying entrepreneurship and I'm like, "Everybody should be an entrepreneur. Everybody should be an entrepreneur. Everyone should be an entrepreneur." And I could not disagree with my old self anymore than that. It doesn't make you good or bad if you're an entrepreneur, you're not an entrepreneur. It's just, that's not meant for everybody just like working for Fortune 1000 companies, not meant for everybody either. It's what's inside of yourself, what's in that DNA. And again, it's easy to say, two things really. One is when shit hits the fan, I'm gonna be the one who's like, takes it and I'm not gonna run and hide. That's one big thing. And then two it's, "Hey, I can I can eat cereal and peanut butter for however long it takes, and I'm willing to work in a basement, and I'm willing to make no money 'cause I just wanna be an entrepreneur." Those two things are really easy to say before you actually do it. Those are two of my big learnings. One, I was willing, I literally would eat cereal and peanut butter. I paid myself the bare-bones just to survive, got myself in massive debt. I was like, could have made a lot more money elsewhere and was willing to work the hours and all that stuff. That's number one. I learned that entrepreneurship really is in my DNA because I loved in a weird way, and maybe in like a weird masochistic way. I don't know. I loved that painful startup journey. I've really enjoyed that for whatever reason. But number two and the reason why my business partner and I, who was one of my co-founders, one of my early co-founders, the reason we still work together today and the reason why he's a brother to me, he's a best friend and a business partner, and we probably will be for the rest of our lives is because the second thing, when shit hit the fan, I could have ran and I didn't. He could have ran and he didn't. That was the difference between, you know, that's why me and him are still together right now. And that's the stuff that you can only learn when it's happening. 'cause I hear it with business partners all the time. I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, friends that are entrepreneurs. So many of these business relationships don't work out because when stuff starts to get ugly, when stuff starts to get really tough, they run they go to a more safety, they run and go to certainty, and that's what my business partner didn't do and that's what I didn't do. And that's why we're so close. And that's why I know no matter what happens, we'll be all right and we'll power through it. But you only know that by going through it.
Well, it's a really interesting point because that happens in Fortune 1,500, whatever organizations as well. It just looks a little bit different, right? Because it is the, who are the leaders who are leaning into the hard conversations? Who are leaning into the change? Who are willing to say, "Okay, what are we gonna do about this? What is the plan? What are we gonna try? how are we gonna figure this out?" Versus those that avoid or place blame on other people or step out of the conversation or don't give feedback or whatever the case may be. And so I think it's a similar behavior and I don't, and I just say, I don't think it's only entrepreneurs that this happens with. I just think it is shows up differently and it's important to recognize that. I think of it as, I mean, I hate the language of lean in, no offense to Sheryl Sandberg just because it's now really associated with that.
Sure.
But it is really like leaning into the hard conversations, stepping into the hard conversations, the hard moments, facing what's really happening, looking at what the opportunity is versus stepping out, avoiding, trying to seek certainty, which PS, is a completely false. there's no such thing as certainty. So the fact that people get so stuck on, "I need something to be certain and sure and safe. It's like, cool. Where does that exist in the world at all? That's not real. It's an illusion and a belief. But that to me is like, that's really the thing is, are we stepping out or stepping in?
100%. And I feel, I don't know if it's like this in Canada as much, but in the US, no matter what side of the political aisle you're on, we all can agree that most politicians, we don't like. And the reason why most people don't like politicians is maybe not 'cause they're naturally bad people. I think they probably have good intentions that's why they get into it. But what frustrates us most about politicians is that when you ask a direct question, what are they always trying to do? They're trying to deflect. They're trying to answer around that question. No matter who the president is, it's always the previous president's fault, No matter who it is, it doesn't matter. But it's always trying to point in the fingers and blame it on someone else. When you ask a direct question, it's I wanna hide and run away. That's why a lot of people don't like politicians, not all obviously. There's some that obviously are great and good intentions and all that. But speaking from a broad sense, that's what we don't like about politicians. So why do we wanna be that ourselves? And I feel like the most freeing thing we can do, not just as entrepreneurs, as any, not just, and not even just as business people, as human beings. The more we could just point the finger at ourself as weird as it sounds, it's the most freeing thing we can do because I can't control what you do, what anybody else does, but I can control what I do. I can control what I say. I can control what I do. So I always feel like if you can put the blame on yourself, which I, I don't do a perfect job of it. I need to do a better job of it every day. But I think the more we can put the blame on ourselves and take responsibility, the more free we become.
Well, it's the Serenity Prayer, right? Which is like, God, give me the whatever to change what I can change, recognize what I can change, recognize what I can't change, and then recognize the difference. That's not obviously the language of the Serenity Prayers, more specific, but that's basically what it is like, what am I in control of? What am I not in control of? And let me be able to recognize the difference between those things because that is really what it comes down to, right? Like there's, I don't know if you've ever read "The Four Agreements" which is a book I talk about nonstop, 'cause I think it's simple and brilliant in so many ways, but one of the four agreements is that, you know, it, the layman's version of it, I mean, he has way better language is like, yeah, there we go. See? Love it. I have it on my bookshelf behind me. But is that like.
It's my pocket version when I travel. It's like the short version. That's so easy, it fits right in the top sleeve of my backpack. So whenever I'm traveling and I need something to read, it's the easiest, best reminder. But anyway, sorry. Keep going.
No, no, but it's a, but I, I love that you have it because that idea of always do my best, that's a big piece of it, right? It's like, "If I'm always doing my best, then that means I'm also examining that I'm always doing my best." And there is an element of reflection, of self-reflection as part of that. So that I know I'm always doing my best and I can course correct it. Doesn't mean it's perfect and you might learn something and, like, we all get better in different information and that's fine, but that's a big piece of it is, if we're not looking at ourselves, if we're not, if we're always looking out to blame or to deflect or to avoid, then we're never actually getting the lesson or learning from the situation about who we are, whatever the next thing may be. And that's a huge missed opportunity.
Absolutely. And that's why I think another one of the agreements is like being precise with your word. And that's another big thing is when you say you're gonna do something, do it. And that was always, that was my biggest, I feel like a lot of things that frustrates most with other people is when we hate that most about ourselves. And that was always my biggest beef with my old self, like in high school and early college days was I felt like I would overpromise and underdeliver. And now, I always try to do the, I'm almost drastically try to be opposite of it is I'd rather underpromise and overdeliver. And the more we do, 'cause as a leader, it's like, you can only BS for so long. Eventually, people are gonna start to see, "Hey, there's a trend. You say one thing, but you don't ever live up to that." And nobody wants to work with people that they don't believe will live up to what their word. If your word stops meaning something, then you can never lead. You can't do anything. You can't have a relationship, personal relationship, professional relationship, anything. No one will wanna work with you. So I just think being precise with your word and then exactly what you were sharing. The more we could do that as leaders, the more we can lean in into taking the blame and not point the fingers, the more freedom we'll have, the more people will respect us. And we'll also will accept our mistakes that we will inevitably make.
Yeah.
If we make a mistake, but we're willing to take the blame, we're willing to put the weight on our shoulders, people will respect that. And that's, I think, something that I always try to do. Again, I'm not perfect at it, but it's always a work in progress for myself.
It's not about, no one's perfect at anything. Perfection is an illusion, right? When I talk to people who are, you know, they will talk about a fear of not getting it right or not being perfect or whatever the case may be, I'm like, "Cool. What is perfect?" And the fun thing about asking that question is nobody has an answer for what perfect looks like, because it's this nebulous concept that we've taken on and we talk about, and it's like, there's no such thing. There's no such thing. So if we remove that idea and it's just like, of course, you're not perfect, none of us. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is perfect. And even if you were to say, "This is what I think perfect is," it's gonna change tomorrow or six months from now or whatever. So let's just all do our best, and let's just learn from what we can learn from and recognize that we are all growing and a work in progress, especially if we are in any kind of leadership role at all, we need to be recognizing that even more so because the impact it has.
Mm-hmm. And I think that starts even just with empathy, having empathy for others, having empathy for ourselves, and knowing that we're not there at that, but as long as, like you said, we're doing our best and we're trying. As long as other people are doing their best and they're trying, I can always forgive that.
Of course.
Like any employee that I had or have, they're gonna make a mistake just like I will make a mistake. As long as they learn from that mistake and hopefully, they don't make that same mistake twice, I can live with it. It's the lazy mistakes or more importantly, the mistakes where they lie. When you catch someone in a lie, it's over for me.
Yeah.
It's over for me. If you're gonna, if you lie, then once we lose that trust, it's almost impossible to regain that trust. That's not just with an employee, that's with the customer, that's with anything. Trust is so important. And again, that's why just talking about what you were mentioning, the four agreements, it's such a powerful reminder every day, because one of my mentors, he always said to me, "Adam, it takes a lifetime to build your reputation, but just one moment to lose it, just one moment to lose it. And that's why it's so important to be impeccable with your word," which is what it is from four agreements. But yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree with what you're saying.
And I think the other, and I'm gonna note this for someone who might be listening, who is like impeccable with your word sounds like a, like that sounds impossible. I would say, there's also, remember, you're doing your best inside of that. So that is also not this nebulous idea of perfect. People are gonna make mistakes. Be impeccable with your word is a work in progress like all of these things are. You wanna do your best. And when you're not impeccable with your word, I talk about some on the podcast all the time. I have ADHD and I am a forgetful zone of many things quite often, but I will, and when it happens, I will always be like, "On me, my bad." I never try and pretend it didn't happen because that's part of the, be impeccable with your word, in my opinion. And the, always do your best is being able to recognize, "Yeah, I screwed up. I forgot about that thing. I missed a deadline. I missed a date, whatever it is, but I'm not gonna, I'm gonna own it for what it is and step into it and deal with it. And here's what we're gonna do about it." And that I think is really important to hear as part of, because you're right. Be impeccable with your word is so important. And people hear that and I think they go, "I can't be impeccable. I can't know everything that's gonna happen."
Of course. Yeah. Like if you say, "Hey, let's go grab dinner on next Tuesday night at 7:00 PM." And then Tuesday at 2:00 PM, it's like, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm not feeling well." Or, "I'm so sorry, something came up." Or, "I'm so sorry. I have this thing going on," or whatever that is, "I can't make it. That's okay. That's life. That's what's always will happen. It's not about being perfect again, but it's just, if the more you can get the reputation as, "Hey, what I say, I do, and what I mean is what I say." The more people believe the words that come out of your mouth, the more life just becomes fun.
Yeah.
The more you're always trying to convince people, "No, I'm gonna do this. No, I'm gonna do this. No, I'm gonna do this." It's like, no, that's when it's like, a constant talk by now was again, because I used to be like that, in high school, like I just, I would feel like I would always overpromise and underdeliver. I hated that about myself. And that's what always frustrates me with other people is, we're not perfect. You can't expect people to be perfect. But when people start to get a reputation of overpromise and underdelivering, it's just a really difficult thing to come back from.
Yeah. I completely agree. So I'm gonna, I wanna ask this question 'cause we're getting to the end of the time we have today, but I'm curious, is there anything that we talked about that you think is really important to emphasize or come back around to or something that we didn't get into when it comes to leadership and change and crisis and all that stuff that you really wanna make sure we spend a few minutes on?
Yeah. 'Cause I think the business partner piece is so important and the reason why is because it's not just if you're a founder and you have a business partner, business partners. Like you mentioned, this is something with big companies that you work with, with the executives. It could be just team members. It could be employees. It could be a romantic partner that you have. It could be a friendship partner that you have. I feel like it's so important. The more we can learn how to cultivate these tight relationships and if you have that, I think it's such an asset. So for example, like my sister, she's a solo founder. I think that's incredibly difficult to be a solo founder. I've never been a solo founder, really. I've had, as a solo proprietor, I've done work as a solo person, but I've never had like, I've never built a business by myself. And I think the greatest asset to me building my current business and my previous businesses is that I have a great co-founder that I trust and that I know is gonna do what he says and that we can work together and build with. And the same with the romantic partner, the same with, if you rise up the ranks at a Fortune 1000 company, it doesn't matter. Everything is about relationships. We can't do anything alone, but people sometimes get wary about, "Who do I trust? How do I know I can trust someone?" And the truth is we don't necessarily know that unless we go through this. But what I found is that you have to be vulnerable with your partners. You have to be truthful, overly truthful sometimes. And then number three, the communication is so important. We all talk about the importance of communication, but we're not mind readers. We're not mind readers. And I feel like that it's such a silly thing, but we convince ourselves that whether it's a romantic partner, a business partner, a coworker or whatever, they know what I'm thinking, but they don't. If we don't be overly transparent, if we don't share what's really going on in our head, they can't know what's going on. So that's why that we, you need that for any relationship and I can't harp on that enough. And again, I guess the final thing I'll I put a stamp on with this, always have the legal documents in place. I do a lot. I'm teaching a class again tonight and you talk a lot about relation, business partnerships with a lot of small business owners. And if maybe one of your friends or family invests money into your business, or they join as a co-founder or an employer, whatever and, "They're my best friend. They're my family." They're not gonna do anything. Always, always, always have the legal documents 'cause that legal document is the, that's the black and white. That's the line in the sand. That will make it so that it can't get ugly. If it does get ugly, you just point back to the legal document. But don't forget that piece of it 'cause it is just so critical.
Yeah. I think that is a really important place to, really important point to emphasize at the end for sure. And I love that you said that we're not mind readers. I just wanna mention that because I think the most common question I ask when I'm coaching executives and leaders is, "Did you ask them about that?" And it's like, I feel, you know, so it's funny 'cause it doesn't make a difference who we are, what our relation. And actually, the closer we are to people and the more we think we know people, the less we ask questions because we run from our assumptions on what we, "I know how that person's gonna behave. It's fine." Right? And so I think it's really important that you mention that and that we emphasize that because that gets worse, not better, the more we know people. So let's note that and not try and read people's minds. Adam, where can people find you online? It'll go in the show notes as well, but if someone's listening and they don't get to the show notes.
Yeah. If you wanna check out my company, it's Email Outreach Company. The website is eocworks.com. I'm most active on, for social media, on Instagram. You could find me @adamirosen on Instagram, or at LinkedIn. It's just /in/adamirosen. So, yeah. Anyone who wants to connect, chatted up, I'm pretty easy to access through those two areas.
Amazing. Thank you for joining me today. It was really, it was a great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time.
No, that was a lot of fun, Celine, and I appreciate you bringing me up.
Anytime. Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.