It’s that time again… In this episode, we look back on the conversations from 2023. Listen in as Céline shares her biggest takeaways, favorite guests, what’s changed (or hasn’t) in the leadership space, and so much more!
Welcome to a 2023 Year in Review! In this episode, we flip the script and Céline is the featured guest (interviewed by her podcast manager, Erin).
Get a behind-the-scenes look at:
- Céline’s biggest takeaways from the year
- Our favorite guests and conversations
- What’s changed (or hasn’t) in the leadership space
- Some topics and themes that are top of mind going into 2024
- Céline’s secret BFF and dream guest list
As Leading Through Crisis heads into its fourth year and approaches its 100th episode, the thing we most want to convey is a big, juicy THANK YOU. Thank you for listening and engaging this last year. It is so cool to hear about what matters to different people in different ways and to highlight the folks that we do. We are so appreciative of your support!
*After this episode, we’ll take a short break but will be back with more good stuff soon! Don’t forget to subscribe to the show (wherever you consume your podcast content), sign up for the newsletter (at leadingthroughcrisis.ca, scroll to the bottom), and keep suggesting guests, listening, and sharing with your friends.
Here’s to another year of GREAT conversations!
- I am Celine Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. Today's a little bit of a different episode, and the guest today is me. So I'm not gonna introduce myself, but I am gonna introduce my wonderful podcast producer, Erin Leslie, who is going to be interviewing me as we flip the script a little bit to kind of wrap up our year. So first of all, Erin, thank you for coming up with this idea and being willing to interview me. And I'm gonna hand it over to you because it's outta my hands for today.
- I'm so excited, this is so fun. So first of all, I am probably the show's like number one biggest fan because I listen to all of the episodes, and take all of the notes, and do all of the things, so this is really fun for me. And I feel like at the end of the year, it's super fun to hear your thoughts and like what stood out to you. And I also was like, you don't get to be on the other side of the microphone, at least on your own podcast very often, and thought it would be super fun to hear from you, kind of like how we hear from guests. So that is what we're going to do today, and I'm so excited to have that conversation with you, and get to highlight you a little bit, and hear your thoughts and feelings around the podcast, and the conversations, and all of that. So thank you for agreeing to this crazy idea.
- Thank you for coming up with it. This should be fun, I appreciate it. And it's funny, 'cause when you suggested this, I was like, "Well, you are definitely the person who has listened to every one of these episodes."
- Yes, yes.
- Straight through out of necessity, so let's do this. I think it's very fun. So thanks for wanting to do this. It's gonna be very different for me.
- Of course. Well, I'm excited about that. So we're gonna start the episode off as you always do by asking you what do you think of when you hear the term leading through crisis, what does that bring up for you, what does that mean?
- The joy of a flipped script, a script being flipped. It's really, it's interesting having done a lot of these interviews at this point, and asking that question so many times, is I would say 90 to 95% of the time, when I ask that question, someone answers it, I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely agree with that." I think there's so many, I think the things that come, like the thing that really comes to mind for me now, and I don't know if I would've said this when I started the podcast, but for sure now is that that means something different to everyone. Leadership is something different to everyone. We all define it differently, we all show up differently, we all have different values and ways in which we lead, and therefore, leadership is not just one thing. And crisis is really different for different people. There are people who really genuinely don't consider anything that isn't kind of like big C crisis, that it is world changing, massively impactful, pandemic level crisis. That is what crisis is to them, and that's how they define it. And there are lots of people who, a small change, what someone else might consider a small change, that becomes a crisis for them. And both things are true, and both things coexist. And so what comes to mind for me when I hear leading through crisis really is that there is no one definition of it, and we are all defining it differently for ourselves based on where we are in the world, where we are in life, what our experiences have been, and that's kind of cool. And I think that's why I keep asking the question the way that I do is because everyone shares their own lens on it, and that's really cool, because it is a constant reminder for me having these conversations that leadership is not one thing, crisis is not one thing. What we focus on, what matters to us is not the same. And that's a really great perspective for me to continue to have.
- Yeah, that's so good. That was so fun to hear. And you sort of dove into what I was gonna ask you next, which was like having started this podcast during the pandemic, has that changed for you at all? Has your answer changed? And you kind of touched on that in that answer, so that was great.
- I don't think it's possible for it not to have changed. Not only because the world has changed, and continues to change, and change is constant, that is the one constant. So not only because of that, but also because, I mean, I've changed. People around have changed. I don't, I mean I don't actually know that I remember what my answer would've been when I started this.
- Do any of us remember?
- Probably not.
- What was happening pre-pandemic?
- No, no, definitely. I mean, definitely not for an answer like this, but yeah, it's for sure change, and I think it will continue to evolve and change, and the constant will be the recognition that there is no one answer. Like I think that is probably my constant when it comes to this sort of thing right now. Also probably my constant in most ways is like I tell people all the time, like, I'm gonna give you the most disappointing answer, which is like, it all depends, 'cause it's always a yes and, not an either or.
- Yeah, yeah. And I think it's so fun that more folks have ended up in that place of like nuanced and gray, and like less black and white thinking over the last couple of years, which is also so fun and interesting to see, because I think it serves us well.
- I agree. And I would also disagree in the sense that I think that people, there are just as many people who are more committed to the black and white and that this or that mentality, that all or nothing, yes or no, whatever it is now than there were before. I feel like people either doubled down. And this is a broad generalization obviously. This is my like black or white, but I'm acknowledging, very broad generalization, but I think, excuse me, the people who, there are people who either doubled down and really like leaned into, "I am right, you are wrong. This is the way, that is not the way," whatever version of it that is, and they're really there, and they have all the evidence that backs that up. Or the experience of the last few years expedited the perspective that they have, the revelations they've had about nuance, and about the gray, and about all of these things can coexist. It is that Venn diagram of things. It is not two separate circles. So I agree with you and I also disagree, because I think there are people who've really doubled down.
- I actually totally agree with that. I think that's really true. I was thinking of one specific group of people when I said that, but then yes, you saying that, yeah, a hundred percent, for sure, so yeah, I think that's true. Thank you for bringing that to the...
- Always welcome.
- What do you think, talking about that, what do you think is the biggest issue, challenge, struggle facing leaders, executives, managers right now in this moment?
- I don't know that I have one good solid answer on this, because I think there are macro issues, and I think there are micro issues, or macro challenges and micro challenges. So I think on a global scale, there are real challenges. Some are economic, right? So I think there are some companies that are, there's some economic changes happening. Again, also very dependent on where you are in the world, the size of your business, all of those sorts of things. And I think leadership has some real, there are some hard decisions to make there. There are some, it's a lot of unknowns, like most change, right? Like we don't really know what's gonna happen. So I think that is dealing with that, and trying to figure out that, and taking that one day at a time, and what can we control for with ourselves, or our business, or our vision, or whatever, and moving that forward. I think that's a real thing. And I think there are also micro challenges. And I'm not saying this is not, these are less important, 'cause the micro challenges can actually be more impactful day to day when it comes to business, 'cause I think they're very, a lot of them are really interpersonal challenges. A lot of them are avoidance of topics, avoidance of getting into things. I think there's a lot of, we are still, I think humans, so not only leaders, humans in general, and I say leaders, I've said this so many times on the podcast, I'm a broken record, but anyone is a leader. I don't care if you have a title of leadership, I don't care if you're a CEO, we are all leading ourselves and have the opportunity to lead people around us by example. So people and leaders to me is very interchangeable when it comes to language. So I say that to say I think that humans in general, we are assumption-making creatures. We make assumptions. Our brains are designed to make assumptions. They are there to help us navigate the world, to help us figure out who's safe, to help us find who we can communicate with, and what ways we can communicate with, or in what ways we can best communicate with them. And those assumptions create a ton of problems inside all of our relationships, inside all of the businesses that we are in. By the way, personal, professional relationships, I don't care, those assumptions are really problematic. We don't question them out loud as much as we should. Those assumptions lead to a lack of clarity, they lead to a breakdown in communication, they lead to unhealthy conflict. Questioning them leads to healthy conflict, which is a whole other thing. But not questioning them, or running from them, unhealthy conflict leads to not getting the things done that we need to get, whatever, not meeting our goals, whatever it is. And so I think that the micro and the macro challenges are real, and I don't know that there any different now than they have ever been. I think, not only based on the conversations I have on this podcast, but the work that I get to do, I really just see them consistently. Like I have over the years, I mean, I talk about assumptions so much. I talk about clarity. Like there's certain things that I keep coming back to that are just, I don't care if you're running a business of 10,000 people, I don't care if you're running a business of five people. These themes continuously come up in that micro level.
- That's really good. That was a fun answer.
- Thanks, I was like, I had a moment where I was like, did I answer the question?
- Yeah, no, you did. I just start talking, and I'm like, I don't know what I'm saying anymore.
- I do that all the time, like follow threads.
- Yep.
- Yeah. So that actually leads us beautifully into my next question, which is if you can think of any, what were some of your favorite conversations from this year or some of the ones that stood out to you that you remember? I know it's tough going back, and thinking about that, remembering, but...
- If I was smart, what I would've done is pulled up a list of the episodes, because when I see someone's name, I will definitely remember. The reality of an ADHD brain is I'm like, I know I've had lots of conversations. I don't remember the specifics of them until I'm reminded of them. So let's see what, I'm only gonna think of the ones that were recent, which is terrible, 'cause that's not fair to my guests. So I would say... Actually, we're gonna, real time, we're gonna let this in. I'm gonna...
- Do it, do it. While you're looking, I can tell you some of the ones. I had the beauty of prepping a little more than you did maybe for this. So I did look through the list, and thought about it, and some of the ones that stood out to me that I remembered like when I was going through, like something really hit, or something like that, the first one of the year actually with Eva Jannotta on resonant leadership, I thought that one was really a great like kickoff episode, and interesting themes, topics to start the year with. Also the danger of silence with Elaine Lin Hering I thought was really impactful and profound, that episode to me. The conversation with Laurel Rutledge that you had on AI and human resources stuff was really fascinating. And we've actually, I realized we actually had like quite a few episodes and conversations this year meant for like HR and middle management, which I thought was really like interesting, and like a group of folks that often gets removed from some of these conversations, or like doesn't have stuff to directly for them, so I thought that was really fun. And then, of course, I always love it when we have past guests come back. We had quite a few of those this year. And like The Punk Rock Doc, J.J. Kelly is always so fun, 'cause she is just a kick in the pants. I love listening to the episodes with her, 'cause she is just super funny. I love always the conversations that you guys have.
- I love that you prepared more for this than I did. I appreciate this so much about you, Erin. Listen, I adore J.J. She is a friend in real life, and she is energetic, and engaging, and always fun to have a conversation with. 'cause she just shows up and is real, and I love that, 'cause I, I mean, I said this before we hit record on this. I'm like, I can, you'll see me clearly looking for episodes real time, 'cause I have ADHD brain. You'll see like, I have no issue showing the messiness of being me, of saying idiotic things, or something then, that I'm like, "That was not, that does not make sense." I do the same thing when I talk on stage. I'll say something, and I'll be like, "I just made up a word. Y'all are welcome. We're just gonna," because I'll acknowledge it. We're all human, right? And for me, it's not about being perfect. It's about being real, and J.J. is real. And so I love having her on for a lot of reasons, but definitely for those reasons, and she'll be back next year, because we just can't get enough of her around here. And I agree with you. Eva, who I also know in the real world, really interesting conversation with her, and her perspectives, and how she shared them. I very much appreciated that. And I think resonant leadership is something that we don't, I don't know that we talk about it that much. So it was fun to have that conversation with her for sure. The episode that I did with Stacey Gordon around unconscious bias, I just, I feel like I could do 47 episodes on unconscious bias and talk to different people, 'cause it's a topic that comes up so much in the work that I do, and it threads through episodes here and there. Not as like the primary topic, where it was much more of a primary topic with Stacey because of her area of expertise, and I'm really grateful that like we talked about that, but it's so important, and needs to be spoken about more and more. So I agree with, for me, that's one of them. Elaine for sure. That to me was such a fascinating conversation around silence. I don't, I didn't, I mean, you might be able to tell from how I do these interviews, they're very conversational, and so I don't go in with like, "I have a real plan about what we're gonna talk about." And that was one of those where I was like, this did not necessarily go the way I thought it would, and that's kind of awesome, and it was really interesting. I mean, Laurel is someone who I adore, so again, she'll be back next week, next year as well. And someone who, because Laurel's background is in HR, the topic of AI was not necessarily what we were planning to talk about. But it was really natural, and she's the first person that I've had on the podcast that really went there in that way, and I was very excited about it, 'cause it is so top of mind for everyone right now. So yeah, I mean, I think that it's been an interesting year of episodes, and it's funny, 'cause just looking through everything, I'm like, I love that we have so many cool women on the show that have different opinions, have big personalities, have big thoughts about things, and I get to talk to 'em about that. That's kind of awesome.
- I do too. I love that so much. It's like, yeah, it's really fun. And I know that's something that like intentionally, behind the scenes, we strive to do that. So it's fun to like actually see some of that getting to be played out.
- Yeah, yes, for sure. And it's one of the things that, I mean, I appreciate many things about you, Erin, but one of the things that I appreciate is, for me, it's really important to have, to represent different people, different viewpoints, women, people of color, queer people, whatever the case may be, that tend not to have as many opportunities to step onto a platform. And a lot of that comes from not pitching themselves as much as some other groups of people do. And that's okay, but it is very intentional to seek out those people, seek out people that may not have the same opportunities to have a platform, or to have these types of conversations simply because they're not out pitching themselves the same way. And so I appreciate that you are as committed to that as I am, and really, you do the work of reviewing any pitches we do get, but also reaching out to people that might be interesting to have on the show, because I want it to be diverse perspectives, and backgrounds, and ways of thinking about things, right? Like one of the things that, again, behind the scenes, one of the things that at a certain point this year, we kind of decided was folks who are coaches, and have been coaching, and that's their thing, we're gonna minimize the number of people that have that background and are doing that, and that is like their whole perspective, that is their whole pitch, because we've had a lot of them. It is those conversations, because my back, 'cause coaching is part of my business, not all of my business, but it can feel like a bit of a cyclical conversation for me because many of them haven't written a book. The ones that we get pitched, I'm not saying this is true across the board, haven't written a book, or don't have like a specific thing, system, whatever that is theirs. If they have that, it's a really different conversation. But when it's like general coaching, and they just want a platform, that is not as exciting anymore. And there's so many people doing interesting things that are different.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like yes to all of those things, and like, let's take it a step further and go ahead and make that an invitation. If you are one of those folks who doesn't get platformed often, or receive the yes often, and you would like to come on and have a conversation, reach out to us. At the Leading Through Crisis website, there's a contact form, and you can submit to come and be a guest on the show. So we very much specifically love highlighting folks whose stories and voices aren't out there as much, and we could definitely use more of those folks reaching out to us, because it tends to be a lot of the same types of folks who would like want to come on and have conversations, which is great, and like at some point, it gets a little repetitive, or like there's plenty of other places where some of those folks can be, like have the stage for a minute, so yeah.
- Yes, please do. If you know someone who would be a good fit, send them our way as well. And, you know, I do wanna say this. You don't have to be the person who comes and talks on, comes and talks on the show, comes to have a conversation, whatever, the guests don't have to be like leadership experts in the way that leadership is their thing. And I think because of the title of the podcast, we get a lot of people who are like leadership coaches. And leading isn't, anyone can lead. This is my point of what I was saying. Like I'm not only looking to talk to someone who is a leadership coach. You can be, have a background in leadership yourself in some way and be doing something totally different. You could be running a business, you could have a personal story of, you know, spoiler, there will be someone I'm interviewing who has a personal story around an illness, and managing and leading through that. That will be coming up next year. That's a great story. It's a different lens, it's a different perspective. One of the women we had on, not this year, but last year, who I'm hoping to get back next year, Robyn Bourgeois, who's an indigenous woman here in Canada, her story and what she shared was not necessarily about as a leadership expert, blah blah blah. It was really about a cultural sense of leadership in a different way. That is interesting. There's so much value in stories like that, that it isn't about you need to have written a book on leadership, and be an expert on X, Y, Z. I'm very open, I think Erin and I are both very open to a number of different ways of interpreting the idea of leading, and the idea of crisis to have interesting, and again, diverse. It's not about saying the same thing over and over again. Let's have different conversations about this.
- Yeah, which I think is so fascinating too, because I feel like some of those different, like not having, broadening the scope, and not having the same lens all the time actually is going to be very beneficial to folks who are also in those typical traditional leadership roles, because they also tend to hear the same things over and over again all the time. Whereas when you have some of those different life perspectives and different conversations about just the leadership, or even humanity, and what that looks like in general, that also, I find myself pulling leadership threads out of those conversations almost more than typical, some more typical trainings or whatever that are set up to specifically teach you things concerned with skills, and stuff like that. But I feel like, I think because we're so, stories are where it's at, right, like as humans, like we love the stories, and that's where we take things from, and so yeah, I love that. I love that explanation and invitation.
- Well, thank you. I'm glad since I didn't tell you I was gonna be saying that, so I'm glad it resonated.
- That's good. Okay, so thinking back to conversations that you've had this year, or maybe just even like, let's talk about life. Let's talk about like you and your business, all the things. Did you learn anything new, or were you reminded of anything important to remember this year?
- Hmm. Did I learn anything new is a really tough question, 'cause I feel like the yes, and can I distill it down into like really specific things? I don't know how easy that will be. Only because recency, the recency effect, right? So I remember best the most recent conversations I've had, or things that stood out about them, or things that I've learned there, 'cause I mean, that's how our brains work. It's why annual reviews for folks are, spoiler alert, terrible, because we only write down the most recent things, and forget all of the great things or maybe terrible things that they did the last 11 months as opposed to the past one month. So that's real, and I'll acknowledge it. Did I learn stuff? Yes, absolutely. Could I be specific about, here's what those things are? Probably not in the moment. But I do feel like I do... You know, I think that one of the things that I love about having these conversations is that every conversation I have reminds me of something different. Which if you listen to the podcast, you probably get that from the way I'm like, "Oh, and blah blah blah," 'cause I have to build on things. So each conversation definitely reminds me of things in a specific way. And I walk away with different language, or ways of talking about things, or something top of mind, and that's top of mind that maybe might not have been top of mind. And it's always, it always becomes relevant in the work that I do and the conversations I have over the next couple of weeks or months. And so I'm lucky in that I almost get to implement, which is why it's hard to pinpoint, like here's the lessons, I almost get to implement some of these things and ways of thinking fairly quickly. And so it gets integrated in a kind of real time way. So roundabout way of saying, "Yes, I learned a lot." I couldn't necessarily tell you what those things are. But I will say that one of the things that has been coming up a lot recently in the work that I do, it's come up in a few conversations, but it's this idea of leading from the, and listen, I did not come up with this saying. If anyone has not heard this before, I'm sure most have, please know, this is not my saying, but it's the idea of leading from the scar, not the wound. And this has come up a few times, because I think there are people that take it really far, and who interpret that as don't show any messiness, and only be, like lead from the wound, or teach from the wound, or whatever, or teach from the scar, lead from the scar, whatever their language around it is, 'cause people do use different language. It's not always lead or teach. They'll say other things. They take it to be like, once I have it perfected, and I can present this flawless whatever it is that they're presenting, that's what I'm gonna be. That's what teaching, or leading, or their language from the scar means. And there are people who, so don't show any messiness. And there are people who only lead or teach from the wound in that they real time process everything they're going through with the people that it might be impacting, or whatever the case may be. And I think there is a middle ground, or, the story of my life, I think there's a middle ground here where we can operate from the scar in such a way that it no longer feels authentic, or real, because it's so polished. And I see this very often, social media is a great place to get to see a lot of this, where it's like polished, and perfectly presented, and it doesn't feel authentic. And I think people get excited about it because they want that, right? Like it's like that, "Oh, I want my life, my business, my whatever to be that. My brand, my leadership style, my whatever is to be that level of polished." Which isn't great, because most of the time, we're actually operating in a much more messy place. I also don't think when you're really in the shit of processing stuff, and you're in that wound, that that's a great place to operate from. But I do think there's a middle ground, and maybe the reminder for me constantly is like, there is always a middle ground. It's neither of the extremes of anything. It's about finding, one, what works for you, and being good with it. And two, recognizing that there are, there's different ways of doing things, and there's middle grounds, and there's a, doesn't always have to be either extreme.
- Yeah.
- So that...
- If that makes sense.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it definitely does. Yeah, yeah. It brings up an interesting question for me around like in hearing you pull that out, and distill that, and talk about, like being able to implement the lessons and the things that you learned in real time. That brings up a question for me around like how do you decide in writing the blog, like what aspect of the conversation you're gonna focus on? Because I don't know if everybody knows this, but you always do like a long-form blog post around the episode that we have, and you usually will grab like one topic or conversation, and write mostly about that, and then we kind of share what the episode is. So how do you decide what that thing is that you're gonna focus on or write about?
- Erin, you have asked that question like I consciously go in there and go, "This is the one." It really isn't that. I appreciate the vote of confidence that you thought it might have been that.
- No, but it's just like whatever like lands for you in the moment when you're thinking about writing it.
- Yeah, it really is a... So I love writing, and I really don't set the time apart to do it outside of the blog posts very often, which is hilarious, given how much I enjoy it, and also how many thoughts I, once I get started, I'm like, "Is this too many words? Is this too little words? What is happening right now?" I can go on tangents. And when I used to do the blog posts, I didn't do that. It was much more kind of, I think I was focusing on trying to summarize, or get into the conversation of the episode fairly early in whatever I was writing. Which, that was just wasn't super fun for me, because it was like, I mean, I could, why not just toss something into, like nowadays, in an AI, generating written whatever, and say like, "Summarize this," and post that. That has nothing to do with me. And so at a certain point, I don't know. I don't know what episode it was, I don't know what changed, but at a certain point, I was like, "I..." There was something that stood out, and I was like, "I wanna write about this," and so I just did. And then I realized that if I, when I read the notes that Erin, you kindly put together for me based on every episode, 'cause I don't remember enough of the details, but when you put your notes together, it's enough that it reminds me of the entire conversation. There's always something that stands out from the conversation that is important to me, or has been top of mind for me recently, or is resonant in whatever specific way. And I'll just write about that. And whatever I, wherever I start is usually not exactly where I end up, but it stands out because I have a story about it, or something personal related to it, or it's been something that's coming up with clients recently. So it's just like, I'm gonna focus on it, 'cause it's clearly a topic that is of this moment, at least in my world. So it's not, it really is whatever, it's based entirely on the moment of rereading the notes, kind of thinking about what stands out. And I mean, fortunately or unfortunately, for those who do read the blog, it's often not exactly what the topic of the episode is, right? So the episode, I mean, I'm gonna pick on, I think it's the last episode that's out, feminine leadership. The topic of the episode was feminine leadership, and we get into a lot of the, I mean, that is a big, it's the main focus of what we talk about. The blog post I wrote is not entirely about feminine leadership. it's much more like I went on a tangent about... It's related, but it was much more about the idea of balancing leadership, and of masculine and feminine energies, because those are constructs, and in the real world of the work that I do, acknowledging their constructs, and it's actually about balancing energy, and not really overly subscribing to any of these of these ideas is what matters. And so the blog posts are loosely related to whatever the topic of the podcast is that week.
- That was actually a fun one. I think my newsletter title for that one was actually "I get a little fiery in this one," because it was fun to see, like there are definitely certain topics that fire you up more than others, and I feel like it's a great kind of look behind the curtain of your experience, and also the things that are mattering to you, and your perspective and lens on things as well, like in addition to the conversation. But it's always fun to kind of have that as a little addendum also.
- I have a lot of thoughts on things. Whether good or bad, it's just real.
- Well, which is part of why you have these conversations, right? Because then you get to like explore those thoughts with other people, so yeah.
- Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
- The thing I have to say, like talking about that, the thing that I always appreciate about you is you are always saying, like please feel free to correct me, please feel free to disagree with me, tell me I'm wrong, I didn't get this quite right. Like I love that you always are just so open to being corrected, and not being perfect, and open to disagreement, or people having a difference of opinion, and not feeling like they have to agree with you all the time, say the same thing. Like I think that's really powerful, especially in like a public conversation space. So just wanted to like say I noticed that, and I appreciate it.
- Thank you. I appreciate you saying that, Erin. It's truly how I operate in general is to... There's two things that I say all the time to clients. I'm sure I've said it on the podcast, but I always say I'm not married to my own ideas. So I am... I can be very vocal, and excited, and enthusiastic about something, but it doesn't mean I'm married to that idea. So push back, correct me. I don't think I've... If you tell me something, which is the second thing I always say, which is I have strong opinions loosely held. If you give me better information than I have, or you have a great argument for something, I'm always open to my mind changing. I'm always open to being wrong. I'm always open to not knowing everything. Even when I'm excited, and advocating, and like really enthusiastic about something, I don't want anyone to ever confuse that for righteousness and an unwillingness to change. I do wanna be corrected. I don't think I'm right about everything. I mean, it'd be great if I was always right about everything. I just don't think that's the case. And I, because being curious, and wanting to know more, hence why I have a podcast, is kind of second nature to me, I want to learn more information. I wanna get, I want people to disagree with me, and tell me their perspective, and sometimes I'll agree, and sometimes I won't, but it's cool to learn what matters to different people in different ways. So I appreciate you saying that, 'cause I genuinely, I think it's atypical for people to want to be corrected, or to want to share different opinions, and I always say that, 'cause I think people's default is to just agree, and I don't want that.
- Yeah, yeah. Okay, switching gears just a little bit, we talked about this a little bit earlier, of like who we would like to see more of on the podcast, throwing that invitation out there. If you had like a dream person, or like a handful of dream people, who would your dream guests be? Like who would you love to have a conversation with?
- Well, first and foremost, my future best friend who doesn't know he is my future best friend, Adam Grant. Because...
- Yes.
- I think I reference him more than anyone in the real world. I don't actually, I feel like maybe I keep it a bit under wraps on the podcast, but in the real world, I reference him, and how he's another person, he's a person to me that is like so driven by curiosity and openness, and I love that. And he is willing to dance, and have a hard conversation, and play with people who have very different opinions than him, and he does it with humor. And that to me is like a gold standard. That is what I aspire to always be doing as well. And he's a great example of it. So I would say Adam Grant. Malcolm Gladwell for a similar idea. He is someone who's very, he'll write a book about one topic, and then write a book about the polar opposite of what he just wrote, and I'm like, that's just so cool that you're that open to exploring all of the things. Liz Gilbert, who I think is another human who just continuously reinvents herself in really interesting ways, and has lots of opinions, but doesn't seem to be married to any of them per se. The first three were easy. Who else would I say? Probably, I mean this is maybe not super expected, but Dax Shepard and Monica Padman from "Armchair Expert," because both of them are so open and willing to question and speak out loud the messiness. And I think that is admirable, especially 'cause they have a huge platform for doing that. Like that is, you don't, I don't think that we see enough of that at that level quite often. I'm trying to think of who else would be a... I mean, can I go to someone like Malala, and just say I wanna have a really interesting conversation? 'Cause she is smart, and cool, and yeah, great. I'd love to talk to her.
- I love it. That's amazing. Well, we'll also just like extend the invitation there, like for any of those folks, if they wanna come on and have a conversation, that'd be amazing.
- Yeah. And Adam Grant, if you wanna be best friends, just say. I am open anytime.
- Celine is open to it, go for it. I love it, that would be awesome.
- Yeah, agreed.
- Oh, so good. What are you leaving behind as we move into the new year? What are you not taking with you, if there's anything?
- That's a good question, Erin. What am I leaving behind as we step into the new year?
- I know I'm the queen of like, let me ask you this like huge question that you could never like distill down, but try anyways.
- I think I am... This is gonna be maybe an odd answer, but I think every year, I leave behind more and more of whatever society's expectations of me are. And I do that really intentionally. I question things very intentionally. And every year, I get clearer on, like that's not actually what I want or what I care about. Why am I carrying any of that? And so more of that is getting left behind for sure. I would like to leave behind, let's see how this goes next year. I would like to leave behind like more of the busyness of doing things just to do them, and be more intentional. I think that, I like to think I do a decent job of being intentional. I'm very intentional around personal things. I am not always as intentional around professional things, and can get kind of caught up in the like, "Yep, we can do that. Like we'll figure it out." Not always the best response. So I think that would be another thing that I'm leaving behind.
- Yeah. And we already, I mean, we just had a conversation before we pressed record about how we're gonna do that a little bit in certain aspects of the podcast. So I love that like already, like jumping into some of that before we even get to the end of the year, so that's great.
- Trying my best.
- I love it. What are you gonna be focusing more on? Like what do you want more of, or to see in 2024?
- Oh gosh, I don't know that I have an answer to that, I...
- It is mid-December, and it's been a long year, so it's okay.
- Yeah, I dunno that I...
- You're on that one yet.
- Yeah, I dunno that I have a good answer to that. I don't know what I'd like to see. Listen, I would like to see more of people having hard conversations in a healthy way in general. So maybe that's what I'm gonna be focusing on, encouraging people to have real hard conversations in a healthy way.
- That's a good one.
- Thanks. It's okay, that's what I got.
- Yeah, no, that's great. Okay, so any parting words? Well, first, okay, one fun question, and then we'll wrap this up. But what will you and the cats be doing for the holidays?
- Hopefully a lot of snuggling is what the cats and I will be doing. I mean, not working for a week is the plan. Lots of seeing people that I love that I don't get to see very often. And hopefully a lot of just hanging out and enjoying time with the cats, that would be great. Yeah, it's gonna be fairly low key in the sense of like, because I don't have family here, I don't have family obligations, so I just get to see my chosen family, and the cats are part of my chosen family.
- I love it. Okay, and so for people who don't know you as well, you have three cats?
- Yes, I do.
- Tell everyone their names.
- I have three cats. This would be the time where we insert a photo of the three cats into this video. They're Jarvis, Amelia, and Beauregard, and they are wonderful, and all in love with each other, and it's great. And I love, I'm an animal person, I'm also a people person. I just like things that are alive, maybe. It's a weird thing. I love animals, and I just happen to have cats at this point in my life. I grew up with dogs, and I don't want to walk dogs and pick up dog poop. So I have cats, and I love them. They're great.
- They are great. It's fun when they make an appearance on Zoom meetings and such, it's great.
- Erin says this noting that before this, before we hit record, I had to deal with one small hooligan who was trying to get behind the computer and turn my camera off, so, you know, it's great sometimes.
- I mean, they keep life interesting and exciting.
- That they do, that they do.
- Finding mischief, being naughty, what would life be without them?
- That's real.
- Oh, so good. Okay, so we're gonna wrap this up as you always do. You always ask your guest at the end. For you, I'm gonna switch it up a little bit, and just say, do you have any parting words? Is there anything you'd like to say to the listeners as we wrap up? But you always end by saying, is there anything we didn't get to that you really want to highlight or drive home? Anything else you'd like to say before...
- So there's nothing that I would highlight or drive home, but I would say to the listeners, thank you. Thank you for listening and engaging. The people who respond to the emails, I get emails back from when we send out the email newsletter. Sign up for that, by the way. You get to read my blogs in those email newsletters. But I do get responses to those, and people engage in that, which is always fun, and I appreciate all of that. So you know, thank you for listening, and for engaging, and for being part of this. It's kind of a passion project of mine, so I appreciate everyone who's been along for the ride. That would be the, that's really the only thing I would say.
- I love that. Well, thank you so much for agreeing to be the interviewee today, and letting people get to hear your answers, and get to know you a little bit better. I think that was really fun, it was fun for me. Hopefully it was fun for them.
- Thank you for interviewing me and suggesting this. It was great, and I'm glad that everyone gets to see your beautiful shiny face on the podcast.
- Behind the scenes, front and center today.
- Behind the scenes, it's great. Thank you, Erin. I really appreciate you.
- You too.
- [Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.